Shamanism v. Religion?

I'm curious where people draw the line between an occult practice being "shamanism" and "religion", since one is often an aspect of the other? Asking specifically because I was going to make a post about Mongolian "white", "black", and "yellow" shamanism but those things are all still very deeply connected to the "Mongolian Folk Religion" as well as aspects of Tibetan Buddhism, animism, and other religious concepts. My instinct is that it would lean towards shamanism for discussion of specific ritual practices, magical items, interactions with spirits (which could, theoretically, be separated into LHP/RHP as well) and religion for the overarching beliefs, history, etc?

Religion is formalised. It has rites, hierarchies, texts, dogma, communities, etc. Shamanism is more "anarchist" in nature - there's not much in the way of standardised practice, and is rooted more in the practitioner, their experiences, psychoactives and oral tradition.

I usually put religion and spirituality in this opposition, with religion being organization and traditions, while spirituality being personal experience of the spiritual.

I think your instinct is largely right, but the line between “shamanism” and “religion” isn’t a hard boundary — it’s more a difference in scope and focus.
Religion usually refers to the broader cosmological and social framework: shared myths, worldview, moral structure, ritual calendar, and historical development.
Shamanism, on the other hand, refers more specifically to a set of ritual techniques and specialist roles within that broader framework — trance states, spirit journeys, healing rites, invocation of spirits, ritual tools, and mediation between worlds. It describes what certain practitioners do, rather than the entire belief system of the culture.
Ultimately, these are modern categories. In traditional Mongolian contexts, there probably wasn’t a strict divide — it was all part of one lived spiritual reality.

Shamanism and religion aren’t parallel, which is where a lot of confusion comes from.

Shamanism predates organized religion and writing. It isn’t a belief system meant for whole populations, but a specialized role and method centered on direct interaction with spirits, trance, mediation, healing, and negotiation. Not everyone participates, and not everyone can.

Religion, is a structured framework designed for entire communities. Shared cosmology, ethics, ritual cycles, and continuity across generations. It welcomes everyone and stabilizes culture. Huge difference.

In places like Mongolia, what we now separate into “folk religion,” Buddhism, and “shamanism” would have been experienced as one lived reality. Shamanism functioned within that broader worldview, not as a separate 'religion' of its own.

The challenge is to not back fill history with our modern lens and narrative.

Greetings kindreds,

As a Shamanic healer, witch, occultist & Luciferian. I would love to shed some light on your question while expounding further.

I hope this response gives some insight into your inquiries:

As an indigenous native shamanic healer, occultist, witch, and Luciferian, I often reflect on the distinctions between shamanism and religion, particularly how they shape my multifaceted practice rooted in ancestral lineages and the dark arts. Shamanism serves as the foundation of my journey, intricately connected to my DNA and heritage. It involves direct interactions with the spiritual realm, utilizing techniques that engage with the energies of the earth, our ancestors, and the mystical forces that govern life. This path is dynamic and experiential, emphasizing individual healing, intuition, and the transformative power of magick.

In stark contrast to structured religious frameworks, shamanism celebrates personal autonomy and fluidity, allowing me to create sacred spaces where I engage with spirits and explore the occult in ways often unrecognized within conventional contexts. My work incorporates rituals designed to invoke and commune with ancestral spirits, drawing from the profound wisdom embedded in my lineage. As a witch, I integrate intentional magical practices, honoring the earth and its energies while deepening my connection to the spiritual realm. This synthesis allows me to harness the power of natural elements for healing and transformation.

My role as an occultist expands my exploration into deeper mysteries, encouraging a fearless quest for knowledge, particularly in areas often regarded as taboo. This exploration enriches my healing work and creates unique dialogues with the energies that shape our existence. Furthermore, embodying Luciferian ideals emphasizes personal enlightenment and the pursuit of knowledge as pathways to transcend limitations and achieve self-mastery. The archetype of Lucifer, as the seeker of wisdom, complements my practices by illuminating the path toward self-realization.

Together, these identities coalesce into a cohesive whole, where animistic spirit work, magical practice, and the principles of Luciferianism inform one another. This holistic approach enables me to guide others on their transformative journeys, weaving together ancestral wisdom, personal experience, and the empowerment that comes from embracing one's true self. Through this diverse tapestry of practices, I cultivate an environment where healing and self-discovery flourish, inviting others to honor their paths while enriching their lives through profound spiritual teachings. In doing so, I celebrate the unity of shamanism, witchcraft, occultism, and Luciiferianism which collectively shape my understanding of the world and my place within it.

In kind regards,
The ShamanicUnicorn Seer aka "She Who Knows"

SUNDANCE said:

I'm curious where people draw the line between an occult practice being "shamanism" and "religion", since one is often an aspect of the other? Asking specifically because I was going to make a post about Mongolian "white", "black", and "yellow" shamanism but those things are all still very deeply connected to the "Mongolian Folk Religion" as well as aspects of Tibetan Buddhism, animism, and other religious concepts. My instinct is that it would lean towards shamanism for discussion of specific ritual practices, magical items, interactions with spirits (which could, theoretically, be separated into LHP/RHP as well) and religion for the overarching beliefs, history, etc?

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Shamanism came first. Then religion.

Shamanism is rooted in the human mind's unique talent in adopting the attributes of others beyond itself. It was discovered and refined a long long time ago at the dawn of civilization to facilitate persistence hunting. Dressing up in animal skin the scout stalker spent their time in isolation honing their craft. Those that survived and thrived eventually took students and shared what they learned in the wild.

Religion is rooted in scriptural revelation. It's scribal. It came much later. Scribal schools need institutions to enforce the integrity of what's written.

SUNDANCE said:

I'm curious where people draw the line between an occult practice being "shamanism" and "religion", since one is often an aspect of the other? Asking specifically because I was going to make a post about Mongolian "white", "black", and "yellow" shamanism but those things are all still very deeply connected to the "Mongolian Folk Religion" as well as aspects of Tibetan Buddhism, animism, and other religious concepts. My instinct is that it would lean towards shamanism for discussion of specific ritual practices, magical items, interactions with spirits (which could, theoretically, be separated into LHP/RHP as well) and religion for the overarching beliefs, history, etc?

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Why VS ? But I do see the point . Normally I would frown upon the adoption of the term outside of the indigenous that have that tradition , but I see you seem to undesrtand that . I would like to read your take on white black and yellow shamanism , specifically in the Mongolian folk tradition ( 'shamanism' ) .

have you seen my references to it ? Including Siberian Bo Murgal ?

I have done some research on its possible development , and its influence , in Central Asia on Zoroastrianism and ( Via Tonpa Shenrab ) to 'Tibet' and the influence of Bo on Bon . Maybe that can be part of the discussion ?

my personal take is that one calls the other in regards to how they perceive themselves with the sole purpose to denote its appliance, when the spanish arrived to south america, they called it shamanism, but to the local natives it was their religion.
it had rigid structures, which mutated in time due to christianism.

Vircaller said:

my personal take is that one calls the other in regards to how they perceive themselves with the sole purpose to denote its appliance, when the spanish arrived to south america, they called it shamanism, but to the local natives it was their religion.
it had rigid structures, which mutated in time due to christianism.

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Well, thats curious ! Since the term 'Shamanism' never got to Spain ( late 17th C ) until after the Spanish arrived in South America (early 16th C ) .

I'd like to see a source on your claim .

... 'Christianism ' ?

I think shamanism is based on the personal power of the shaman, and religion is based on the power of the egregore. Therefore, a shaman must be skilled, have a high level of personal training and competence. The priest, on the other hand, can simply perform the rituals, relying on the power of the egregor.

"Shamanism" (an unfortunate catch-all term nowadays) is the precursor to most, if not all, ancient systems of belief. Being a shaman forces one to interact with the spirits/gods/wights/etc. directly in order to gain knowledge of the hidden things in the world. Religion doesn't require much from the individual at all, in the grand scheme of things, but it gives a decent structure to live one's life by (and, ideally, a glue to keep a society together).

SUNDANCE said:

I'm curious where people draw the line between an occult practice being "shamanism" and "religion", since one is often an aspect of the other? Asking specifically because I was going to make a post about Mongolian "white", "black", and "yellow" shamanism but those things are all still very deeply connected to the "Mongolian Folk Religion" as well as aspects of Tibetan Buddhism, animism, and other religious concepts. My instinct is that it would lean towards shamanism for discussion of specific ritual practices, magical items, interactions with spirits (which could, theoretically, be separated into LHP/RHP as well) and religion for the overarching beliefs, history, etc?

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Bon is such a fascinating subject. I used to assume that Tibetan Buddhism had "subjugated" the core of the actual tradition, but as I get older, I realize it's still a doorway towards interacting with those things... for those that want to bend a few rules, of course. I find it similar to the cult of Santisima Muerte and Catholicism. Catholicism, in this case, is an entry point to a very chthonic (pagan, if you will) path of sorcery with genuine indigenous roots. I'm certain there are a number of "hidden" European traditions within the umbrella of Catholicism (and even Orthodox Christianity) waiting to be discovered in a similar manner.

Firetree said:

Well, thats curious ! Since the term 'Shamanism' never got to Spain ( late 17th C ) until after the Spanish arrived in South America (early 16th C ) .

I'd like to see a source on your claim .

... 'Christianism ' ?

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I checked, double checked and tripled checked, then went to refresh my memory on a couple of ancient books and i HATE to say it, but you are quite right! the paganism is never given a specific name, and most mentions of it are out of history books (hence my perception) but if you read "cautiverio feliz" or "la araucana" there is not a single use of the word "Shaman" or "Chaman" as it would be in spanish.

In a way, it is an imposed distinction. Pagan religions are largely, in fact, magical religions. I wouldn't concern myself with this question at all because it has no practical significance. The idea of 'religion' in the strict sense is a continuation of Abrahamic patterns of thought. However, if it's easier for you, then understand religion as a worldview complement to your shamanic practice. In this sense, religion can be a set of ideas that shape your outlook on the world.

Firetree said:

Why VS ? But I do see the point . Normally I would frown upon the adoption of the term outside of the indigenous that have that tradition , but I see you seem to undesrtand that . I would like to read your take on white black and yellow shamanism , specifically in the Mongolian folk tradition ( 'shamanism' ) .

have you seen my references to it ? Including Siberian Bo Murgal ?

I have done some research on its possible development , and its influence , in Central Asia on Zoroastrianism and ( Via Tonpa Shenrab ) to 'Tibet' and the influence of Bo on Bon . Maybe that can be part of the discussion ?

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I think the general thrust of my question here is "where can I make posts about Mongolian shamanism if it's technically a religious practice?", rather than "is there a clear delineation between these concepts?". When it comes to the latter question I absolutely agree with you, @Planet13, and @FireBorn that trying to separate the two speaks to a modern and Western narrative that simply can't be easily applied to something with such a different historical and cultural origin.

I think that, as far as "shamanism" can be ascribed as a useful term, it applies to the specific type of ritual practice that relates to animist interactions with spirits and land. It also usually requires the presence of a special social role to be ascribed to the practitioner, which allows them to interact with spirits and magical world and often puts them in a position of social service and authority (through healing, divination, communication "beyond the veil", etc.). I suppose I would ascribe an active element to "shamansim" that is not inherent to "religion", if that makes sense?

I'll make a post about the different paths soon in the [Witchcraft, Folk Magic and Herbalism] section. I haven't read much on Bo or its influence on Zoroastrianism, would definitely appreciate your input there! My knowledge base is half academic/anthropological (such as Hesse's On the History of Mongolian Shamanism in Anthropological Perspective and A Note on the Transformation of White, Black and Yellow Shamanism in the History of the Mongols) as well as first-hand accounts from shamans I've met with and rituals I've observed/taken part in. There are good primary sources out there, but I don't have the time or skill to translate them out of Mongolian .

I posted elsewhere recently that "shamanism" as a term is a problem with Western anthropologists using an imprecise term.

Animism is the lager umbrella term for "traditional religions." Religions are for everyone, and are typically organized or hold standards/practices/rites, etc. I can go and make an offering to a tree spirit, so can my cousin or granny.

When a real shaman does their work, that is called shamanism - but it would be like if Christians had "Bishopism" as a term for when a bishop gives communion or something. Believing the shaman's work is real isn't a religion as the shaman doesn't lead anything. If a village has no shaman, they can still engage in spiritual practices within animism.

Swampdweller900 said:

I posted elsewhere recently that "shamanism" as a term is a problem with Western anthropologists using an imprecise term.

Animism is the lager umbrella term for "traditional religions." Religions are for everyone, and are typically organized or hold standards/practices/rites, etc. I can go and make an offering to a tree spirit, so can my cousin or granny.

When a real shaman does their work, that is called shamanism - but it would be like if Christians had "Bishopism" as a term for when a bishop gives communion or something. Believing the shaman's work is real isn't a religion as the shaman doesn't lead anything. If a village has no shaman, they can still engage in spiritual practices within animism.

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Absolutely agree, one of the many issues with Western anthropological theory. I like your "bishopism" allegory, too. Very succinct way to point out the flawed language!

SUNDANCE said:

I think the general thrust of my question here is "where can I make posts about Mongolian shamanism if it's technically a religious practice?", rather than "is there a clear delineation between these concepts?".

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I would say just put it in 'religion' forum or general occult . We could probably have more than one thread on it .

SUNDANCE said:

When it comes to the latter question I absolutely agree with you, @Planet13, and @FireBorn that trying to separate the two speaks to a modern and Western narrative that simply can't be easily applied to something with such a different historical and cultural origin.

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Thing is , all the 'religions' I encountered (in study ; comparative religion ) post 1700s were not 'distinctive' within their society - ie, no 'religious / secular ' distinction in the society .... all 'Law' was like Sharia law ... and society and culture were 'religious ' .. actually the word in a few religions , that we interpret in a modern sense to mean 'religion' actually meant 'law' .

When I started studying the subject at university , the beginning units were all about this , the modern development and analysis of this concept of 'religion' . . . etymological analysis of the term and the history of its development and who applied the term .

SUNDANCE said:

I think that, as far as "shamanism" can be ascribed as a useful term, it applies to the specific type of ritual practice that relates to animist interactions with spirits and land. It also usually requires the presence of a special social role to be ascribed to the practitioner, which allows them to interact with spirits and magical world and often puts them in a position of social service and authority (through healing, divination, communication "beyond the veil", etc.). I suppose I would ascribe an active element to "shamansim" that is not inherent to "religion", if that makes sense?

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Yes .

SUNDANCE said:

I'll make a post about the different paths soon in the [Witchcraft, Folk Magic and Herbalism] section. I haven't read much on Bo or its influence on Zoroastrianism, would definitely appreciate your input there!

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It will appear at some stage in the religious section .

SUNDANCE said:

My knowledge base is half academic/anthropological (such as Hesse's On the History of Mongolian Shamanism in Anthropological Perspective and A Note on the Transformation of White, Black and Yellow Shamanism in the History of the Mongols) as well as first-hand accounts from shamans I've met with and rituals I've observed/taken part in. There are good primary sources out there, but I don't have the time or skill to translate them out of Mongolian .

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My focus is on cultural anthropology . Thanks for the reference , I'll hunt it down . You approach seems similar to mine ; part academic and part 'out in the field ' and participating .

In case I didnt before , or you missed it , I have been linking this book to the subject ;


that site also has some good articles and extracts from the book .

Firetree said:

My focus is on cultural anthropology . Thanks for the reference , I'll hunt it down . You approach seems similar to mine ; part academic and part 'out in the field ' and participating .

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No need! Here's a . I'll definitely check out the book you listed, too.

SUNDANCE said:

No need! Here's a

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

. I'll definitely check out the book you listed, too.

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heave you checked out Lake Biakal in Siberia ? What a place ! Its sort of central to my theory ;





It is actually a fissure in the Earth;s crust .

... and has the world's only inland fresh water seals !

SUNDANCE said:

No need! Here's a

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

. I'll definitely check out the book you listed, too.

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An interesting read . What stuck me was , even in such a paper that mostly focuses on intrusive elements and changes , I was stuck by some similarities in the traditions and knowledge with the Australian indigenous cultures .